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1 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 9:33:45am

Don't take this wrong, but he is not a Holocaust survivor. Holocaust pertains specifically to extermination of Jews. I know that nowadays the term is often used to pertain to all civilian victims of the Nazis, but this usage is incorrect:

[Link: www1.yadvashem.org...]

By the 1950s, the English term Holocaust came to be employed as the term for the murder of the Jews in Europe by the Nazis. Although the term is sometimes used with reference to the murder of other groups by the Nazis, strictly speaking, those groups do not belong under the heading of the Holocaust, nor are they included in the generally accepted statistic of six million victims of the Holocaust.

[Link: www.ushmm.org...]

The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.

2 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 10:01:51am

I think it's just silly not to include other victims of the nazis in the "Holocaust," especially those who were in the same camps and annihilated in the same gas chambers.

3 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 10:20:53am

re: #2 Alouette

I think it's just silly not to include other victims of the nazis in the "Holocaust," especially those who were in the same camps and annihilated in the same gas chambers.

Well, that's how the term is defined, regardless of what we may think about it. And there is a good reason for this, because the fates of different camp contingents (or victim fates outside of the camps) were not the same.

Jews _were_ a unique case. They underwent selections upon arrival because they were Jews. They were sent to the gas chambers because they were Jews. They had extermination camps set up specifically for them. There were no extermination camps for homosexuals or for Gypsies, although they would sometimes be murdered in extermination camps set up for Jews. I think the difference between categories of victims warrants the special term for genocide of Jews.

If we simply label any civilian murdered by the Nazis in occupied territories as a victim of the Holocaust, then purely numerically there were more Slavic victims of the Holocaust than Jewish ones.

4 CuriousLurker  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 10:47:54am

re: #3 Sergey Romanov

If we simply label any civilian murdered by the Nazis in occupied territories as a victim of the Holocaust, then purely numerically there were more Slavic victims of the Holocaust than Jewish ones.

So, IOW it dilutes the meaning (and associated horror) of something that was very specifically aimed at Jews and ONLY Jews, correct?

5 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 10:59:10am

re: #4 CuriousLurker

So, IOW it dilutes the meaning (and associated horror) of something that was very specifically aimed at Jews and ONLY Jews, correct?

Dunno about "dilution", but of course it changes the meaning. I don't know so much about Homosexuals, but since you made a page about this recently, you are probably aware of the fact that there is a bit of a controversy over whether the persecution and attempted extermination of Europe's Roma by the Germans should be counted as part of the Holocaust or as "its own" genocide, the Porajmos. Sergey is pointing to something very important in that even in the same camps different groups were treated differently. You might want to look up the infamous "gypsy camp" that was a subcamp within Auschwitz.

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 11:02:45am

OK, I get the terminology discussion.

But I would also like to bring the discussion back to Mr. Brazda.

The passing of a generation.

7 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 11:02:52am

re: #3 Sergey Romanov

Well, that's how the term is defined, regardless of what we may think about it. And there is a good reason for this, because the fates of different camp contingents (or victim fates outside of the camps) were not the same.

Jews _were_ a unique case. They underwent selections upon arrival because they were Jews. They were sent to the gas chambers because they were Jews. They had extermination camps set up specifically for them. There were no extermination camps for homosexuals or for Gypsies, although they would sometimes be murdered in extermination camps set up for Jews. I think the difference between categories of victims warrants the special term for genocide of Jews.

I don't know whether there ever was a Nazi plan to exterminate all homosexuals (they certainly persecuted them heavily, though). But there definitively was a genocidal plan targeting Europe's Roma population (Festsetzungserlass, Auschwitz-Erlass etc.).

8 CuriousLurker  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 11:03:33am

re: #5 000G

Thanks for the added explanation.

Sergey is pointing to something very important in that even in the same camps different groups were treated differently. You might want to look up the infamous "gypsy camp" that was a subcamp within Auschwitz.

I'll do that. I don't know a lot about WW2, but I just received my first book about it form Amazon yesterday, so I hope to correct that this year.

9 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 11:04:48am

re: #8 CuriousLurker

I don't know a lot about WW2, but I just received my first book about it form Amazon yesterday, so I hope to correct that this year.

One of the darkest chapters of Europe's history (and Europe has a lot of those kinds of chapters).

10 CuriousLurker  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 11:08:42am

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, I get the terminology discussion.

But I would also like to bring the discussion back to Mr. Brazda.

The passing of a generation.

This is so true. I've met a couple of Holocaust survivors...there's nothing quite like hearing about it from a living, breathing human being who personally experienced it and is sitting in front of you talking about it.

11 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 11:09:06am

re: #8 CuriousLurker

I'll do that.

I think these might be good online starting points:

[Link: en.auschwitz.org.pl...]
[Link: isurvived.org...]
[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

The german Wikipedia also has a good chapter on that camp: [Link: de.wikipedia.org...]

Sorry for threadhijacking, everyone. I'll stop now.

12 CuriousLurker  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 11:17:19am

re: #9 000G

One of the darkest chapters of Europe's history (and Europe has a lot of those kinds of chapters).

Just reading the first few pages of the book blew my mind: 10 million (soldiers) dead in WWI, 60 million (soldiers + civilians) in in WW2. I have a hard time wrapping my head around that.

13 CuriousLurker  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 11:18:05am

re: #11 000G

Sorry for threadhijacking, everyone. I'll stop now.

Thanks for the links, I'll stop now too.

14 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 11:23:53am

I highly recommend the books The Drowned and The Saved, and Survival in Auschiwtz, for anyone who wants a harrowing but meticulous account of the camps.

Both are by Italian/Jewish chemist Primo Levi, who, unfortunately, killed himself, plagued by survivor's guilt.

15 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 12:23:55pm

Please note, that a special term for the Nazis' genocide of the Jews - whether that be the Holocaust or Shoah - does not denigrate the suffering of other victims in any way, no more so than a special term for the murder of the Gypsies (Porajmos) denigrates other victims. In pointing out that Mr. Brazda wasn't a Holocaust survivor I'm not diminishing the suffering he and others underwent.

Indeed, just a few days ago we discussed with 000G whether one genocide (or democide) is like another. For me the fact of the genocide overwhelms the differences between them - mass murder is mass murder, regardless of ethnicity or religion. However, this doesn't mean that purely historically we cannot point out differences between various massacres. Holocaust was something other than Porajmos. Porajmos was something other than murder of Soviet POWs. And so on.

16 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 12:49:05pm

re: #15 Sergey Romanov

Please note, that a special term for the Nazis' genocide of the Jews - whether that be the Holocaust or Shoah - does not denigrate the suffering of other victims in any way, no more so than a special term for the murder of the Gypsies (Porajmos) denigrates other victims. In pointing out that Mr. Brazda wasn't a Holocaust survivor I'm not diminishing the suffering he and others underwent.

Indeed, just a few days ago we discussed with 000G whether one genocide (or democide) is like another. For me the fact of the genocide overwhelms the differences between them - mass murder is mass murder, regardless of ethnicity or religion. However, this doesn't mean that purely historically we cannot point out differences between various massacres. Holocaust was something other than Porajmos. Porajmos was something other than murder of Soviet POWs. And so on.

The nazi's definition of who is considered a Jew for extermination is not the same as Torah's definition of who a Jew is for religious purposes so it is fair to say that many Holocaust victims were not Jews by religion. I think it is hair-splitting to say that gays and Roma who were imprisoned in the exact same camps because of their birth origins were not Holocaust victims.

However I would not give the "Holocaust victim" label to people who were executed for their political views (like Maximilian Kolbe, or Hans and Sophie Scholl) rather than because of birth circumstances they had no control over.

17 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 4, 2011 3:43:37pm

RIP. The things he and others went through should never happen to any other human being ever again.


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